Yeah. I am wrong about this. however, in my own defense, if you take parochial schools out of it, which is the group I was talking about, then I bet you'd get the opposite result. When I hear private, I don't think parochial because the distinction is generally made between private, public and Catholic schools.
I'm assuming Jimmy wasn't talking about religious private schools, because if he were, the answer to the question "why don't you work for a private school without a union," could be "I'm not Catholic," or something.
Do teacher's unions allow students to perform better in academics? If the answer is that it does not, then there are obviously problems with teacher's unions.
Think of it this way: when a manufacturing union provides benefits to members, a it hurts a company's bottom line. I don't necessarily care if a manufacturing union causes a company to lose profits (provided that its not enough to actually cause the company to lose money). I can accept the sacrifice of better living standards for workers for less profit for companies.
When a teacher's union provides benefits to its members, it can come at the cost of academic performance from students. That is a sacrifice I can't accept. Students in America need to be the best in the world. Not 33rd, or whatever they are right now. I have to stress again, there are cases where high teacher morale and good academic performance go hand in hand. There are cases where they do not. Those cases are what I'm talking about.
And to repeat what I said in Politics! thread, I do not necessarily want an end to teacher's unions. I just think they can be too powerful and too resistant to change.
Anyway, school reform in America is a very complex issue.
http://alfiekohn.com/articles.htmOriginally Posted by Berliner
My favorite school reformer.
Interesting thoughts about child rearing as well.
And I also second the interest in Stef talking about the transition from comedy to teaching or whatever journey she took.
if i found out that one of my high school teachers had a podcast on which she said the word "fuck," i would go crazy
let alone a podcast with todd glass and jimmy dore...she must teach under a secret identity
Is comedyandeverything@gmail.com still the email to send to?
As a teacher, the protection of mediocrity/terrible teachers is the main issue I have with unions. By simply coming to work more days than someone else, you are deemed more valuable, running contrary to any business. If someone is losing their clients they tend to lose their job, but in my line of work, those that do a good job end up having classes stacked, parents know who is good and who isn't. A call to the counselor and you switch. A shit teacher now has smaller class sizes (17/18) as opposed to the max (35).
It certainly is something that the administration needs to deal with in the pre-tenure phase, but the union doesn't help. If I want to opt out of our union, I still pay dues, so it isn't a real voluntary set up. Couple that with the 'old boys network', a lack of transparency during negotiations and pay increases the union reps get for doing very little, ours is looked at as a necessary evil by many. If you think they have kid's best interest in mind, I can tell you first hand it is the opposite. If we followed the contract to the letter kids would be at a huge disservice.
I like the fact that I can't be fired on the spot for something absurd, but it would be nice to feel your job performance has something to do with pay increases, stability, etc. There are some dynamite young teachers at our school who are on the chopping blocks while we have "more experienced" teachers who suck the fun out of learning are untouchable. It is hard to get fired if you are doing nothing, no one complains.
Jimmy says "go work at a private school." They couldn't pay me what I make now. In my area (and in most others, I'm sure) there are many, many more public schools than private.
Maybe I'd be wrong, but I'd like to test the free market without unions, schools could actually improve their staff year to year, instead of waiting on retirements to trim the fat.
Loved the last few episodes.
deoxyribonucleic asshole.
Thanks for the insight!
Well I gotta mention on the show. I did an edit of Gary Gulmans radio play from episode 43. I didn't think it would make the show, seeing as its over 3 minutes long, so I uploaded it to youtube if anyone wants to check it out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXXsP4XKH80
Involuntary dues coupled with the fact that teachers unions contribute to political causes without consultation is a very valid reason to not like unions.
Although I think these things are more of a reason to be pro-union REFORM rather than anti-union.
Which doesn't necessarily go against what you said, I'm just mentioning.
(just commenting to get update alerts on the thread - great conversation, everyone!)
You can subscribe without commenting.
Also, the newest episode is pretty awesome. I am only 30 minutes in, but it might be one of my top 5 episodes. I love the silly.
most things written here about teachers unions, except for my posts, are completely wrong.
Floedout logic is hard for me to follow, saying how he wishes a world with no teachers union, but he then says he doesn't want a non-union teaching job because those jobs pay shit. ?????????????
SO I guess his wish is to have all teachers jobs pay shit and be vulnerable to firings from tyrants.
He laments that better teachers have to teach classes who's size is at the max allowed.
And why do you think there even is a cap on class size in the first place!!!??? Thank your union!
I don't know where he works but all the teachers union reps that I know are UNPAID!.
Let me say that again, all the union reps that I know are UNPAID!
It is also hilarious and sad that you dont' see a connection between a strong teachers union and better teachers.
If your goal is to serve the students, then don;'t you think attracting better quality people to be teachers serves them?
Do you not see the connection beteween a strong union securing better pay and benefits for their teachers and actually attracting better teachers ?
Lets say Pasadena Ca. had a shitty teachers union and so their teachers had poor pay and poor benefits, but Glendale Ca. had a stronger union that had fought for better pay and benefits. NOw lets say yo are an above average teacher, where are you gonna want to work?
It is as simple as this: better pay attracts higher quality employees. Unions fight for better pay and benefits which attracts a higher quality teacher. If you think not enough quality people want to be teachers now, then get rid of unions, start paying them what the private schools pay and then see what kind of quality teacher you get.
Shitty teachers are there because ADMINISTRATORS hired them, and then ADMINISTRATORS evaluated them, and then ADMINISTRATORS recommended they be retained.
It is ok that some people get this so horribly wrong, because I am the leader and I am here to splain it to you.
Thanks for listening! This weeks guest, David Feldman!
But aren't shitty teachers ALSO attracted by better pay?
nathan smart!
http://www.nathansmart.com
High quality teachers aren't in it for the money.
http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/edweek/meritpay.htm
A high quality teacher will go to whatever school system gives them the most freedom, compromised with how difficult the commute is. Not everything is driven by greed, Jimmy.
Unions protect teachers. An unfortunate side affect of protecting all teachers is that you protect shitty ones. I hope you can at least follow that part of the logic.
I believe that he's arguing that unions should be better (there's a lot of room for improvement), not that a lack of unions is a better alternative in the current climate. You're too quick to assume the worst about someone's position. Some of his assumptions may be off, but to say he's "horribly wrong" is disrespectful and inappropriate in any sort of mock-serious discussion.
Especially since he's actually a teacher and might know more about than you. Of course he might not, but you're just saying "Look at the correlation!" rather than "My experience in teaching is different than yours!" I don't even know what relevance the payment of union reps has, but you capitalize and punctuate as if it's a "gotcha!"
(of course if stef was saying it that would be a different story. Also, can't wait for the new episode)
Do members of the United Autoworkers make more money and get better benefits than their counterparts in Japan (and their counterparts in America making Japanese vehicles)? Yes. Does that allow American cars to be better than Japanese ones? No.
Those are just cars though, not children. The American Auto Industry should be completely overhauled, and so should the American Education Industry, because it is in worse shape than the big three. And that means reforming everything, including teachers unions.
Also if you want to see teachers who aren't in it for the money, check this out. Of course, teachers unions consider these people to be scabs.
This is completely random, but I was listening to an old episode where Jimmy quotes some comedian's bit about a football coach saying "That's what you're susposed to do. Make a pass. Make a tackle. That's what you're susposed to do"
I can't stop fucking saying that. It's so funny.
That's all.
Very quickly for nathan:
Yes everybody is attracted to higher pay, but then you get to pick which one you want to hire when they show up.
that is kind of like saying, "aren't shitty baseball players attracted to signing bonuses?"...
Are some people really suggesting that higher pay does not entice a better quality of people to want to go into that profession?
Really??? So the prospect of higher wages works to attract a better quality employee in every circumstance except teaching? Money is a motivator for everyone everywhere except teachers. Got it.
Teachers dont' even care about money. I will rememebr that the next time there is a teachers strike.
I understand that teaching is labor of love for lots of teachers, but why cant' we pay teachers as well as engineers?
Or how bout we pay them as well as wall street bankers? You think maybe then the students who finish at the top of the class will consider teaching as a profession?
I typed out a whole big thing, but it isn't worth it. No need to get too far into this.
You can counter metaphors with metaphors and all you end up getting is nothing. It's a waste of time.
This discussion started with teachers unions, who do not endorse merit pay, but rather seniority benefits.
http://www.texaspolicy.com/pdf/2008-...Quality-bt.pdf
Money can be a powerful incentive in attracting and retaining the best teachers. However, most
public school districts in Texas, and nationwide, pay their teachers off of a rigid salary schedule.
Th is schedule, designed in 1921, rewards seniority over eff ectiveness in the classroom. Contrary
to popular belief, teachers do not improve every year in the classroom aft er the fi rst few years.
Nonetheless, aft er each year of teaching, teachers move a step up the salary schedule and gain a
corresponding pay raise.
So you get paid more for being a teacher longer, rather than being a better teacher. And don't think that being a teacher longer necessarily makes you better. Do you think that encourages quality teacher? No, it encourages old teachers instead of young, creative ones.
On the other hand, merit pay would be as good for students as No child Left Behind was. The thing you have to change first is how students/teachers are evaluated.
I'm curious to hear what Steff/Steph/Stef thinks, or another teacher.
Oh, and the new episode was great
Last edited by bridgetosolace; July 10, 2009 at 10:59 PM.
I for one am not saying that higher pay doesn't result in better and more motivated teachers. I have said twice already that higher teacher morale correlates into better academic performance. What I am saying is that the systemic problems caused teachers unions blunt the effects of higher pay.
For example, teacher's unions make it very hard to fire a bad teacher without a long drawn out process. There are teachers who have molested their students, and they are allowed to draw a paycheck from the school for years while they sit in their homes and have their cases disputed. You don't think the expenses it takes deal with these terrible teachers and human beings could be used to pay more to the good teachers who don't go around molesting their students?
Also, its not just the teachers unions I have a problem with in the handling of education. I think education should be the number one priority of this country. I think billions of dollars should be reallocated away from our defense budget and put into education, which includes paying teachers more. I think parents should be actively encouraged to become more involved in education outside of schools. I think the entire American culture should respect education and learning more. And I think that power needs to be taken teachers unions when they refuse to remove "benefits" for teachers that hurt student's opportunity at quality education.
If we are going to diagnose and treat an illness, shouldn't we make sure we recognize all the symptoms? Teachers unions are of one those symptoms, and ignoring them isn't doing any favors to our education system.
Last edited by Berliner; July 10, 2009 at 11:25 PM.
If we're talking the fault of the American education system, I'd say the whole pedagogy is at fault from the fact that students are all taught the same thing in the same way regardless of their interest or their learning styles at a pace most often dictated by the slowest student or simply the teacher's whims to the very curriculum itself. The curriculum is redundant, but most of it is forgotten. I've seen Glory three times! I've memorized and forgotten all about WW2 on three separate occasions! Maybe it's our consumerist culture that makes people think that the amount of stuff you "have" in your brain, the trivia you know, is how smart you are, as opposed to critical thinking skills, which can't be measured by rattling off dates or formulas.
Children are naturally curious, but the why questions decrease significantly once they enter academia. Grades and quotas are not the answer, but they're the easiest tool which is why they're employed. The emphasis is on memorization at the expense of understanding and critical thinking, which, again, is because it's easier to quantify multiple choice than essays. And essays are revised, while the strict grading leaves no room for revision. Then there's the arts, which are drastically cut, leading to people being unable to express themselves to others and, most importantly, unable to express themselves to themselves.
People are social animals. It is their experiences with others that create the persons that they will be, and yet school does not focus on socializing people except for preparing them for a life time of employment and alienation. Teachers are just people, and often not even special people. I've personally been compared to Hitler, have had a friend compared to Ted Bundy, and when I wrote a research paper--which got an A--called Faults of the American Education System, the faculty member I met with said in a sarcastic tone, "If you don't like it, leave. That's like telling a depressed person, "Hey, if you're so sad why don't you just kill ourself?"
A wrong answer in the class room can make people feel insecure and unwilling to participate, but most teachers lack the faculties to deal with or identify such issues. Most people lack the same skill set, so it's no surprise. The sort of people who I meet as education majors makes me apprehensive about the future.
Teacher morale is affected by all of this as well. I've seen and spoken with plenty of teachers/professors who are jaded and themselves apathetic due to student apathy. But where does that apathy come from? The schools themselves.
If people say, "It would require too many teachers to teach well," how is that a problem? Where else are our resources spent if not on educating people? Unemployment is on the rise, but we're firing teachers. People join the military just for the money, they don't care about the cause. Smart people, not just the uneducated poor the military usually gets involved. College grads who can't find work in cubicle farms or tanning salons are joining the armed services. Put them in schools instead.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
