I loved Lost

[nadsat droog]

I might be the biggest season six apologist around here and I think it's weird that I didn't like the new episode and a lot of the haters did. Every week I keep telling people not to worry and that everything's going to be fine. And then I'm almost pushed to the other side by last night's borefest. I'm still holding strong, but it feels like they have to get these flash heavy episodes out of the way before getting into the good stuff. At least I hope that's the case.

On another forum someone pointed out the fact that every main flashsideways character has looked at their reflection at some point. None have seemed to be as significant as Jack looking at his ghost scars, but it's an interesting tidbit.

Sepinwall posted Mike Schur's flashsideways theory in his review last night:

I think the alt-present scenes are an attempt to show what each character's true nature is, absent any situation where the island draws them more towards either Smokey or Jacob. This didn't occur to me until last night, but it felt like they were saying: Ben is an intellectual guy, searching for meaning in his life, frustrated by powerlessness, and thus capable of Machiavellian manipulations. But inherently, when push comes to shove, he is decent. Which is why in the island-reality he chose, at that crucial moment, to steer away from Smokey and back to Jacob. Sayid, on the other hand, has something inherently violent and evil in him, which is why in the alt-present he killed those guys, and on the island gave himself over to Smokey. Jack is deeply conflicted about his father and has it in him to be angry and conflicted, but in the alt-present he is inherently interested in being a good father himself and breaking the cycle of emotional abuse, so in the island-reality he's on Team Jacob, and so forth.

[...]

I think they are "influencing" what is happening on the island only inasmuch as they show us what these people truly are, in the truest existential sense -- their actual natures are at play in the alt-futures, and those "teetering-between-good-and-evil" natures, I guess you could say, are what Jacob "saw," somehow, and they are what led him to determine that they are "candidates." That moment where Smokey picked up the white rock off the scale and tossed it out the door is more fuel for this theory -- they pick people who are perfectly balanced between "bad" and "good" and bring them to the island as a sort of laboratory to determine which of those forces wins out in the end. So the events that are occurring in the island-present -- the Lost version of "The Stand," where sides are being drawn -- are the "result" (though not really, obviously, in the causal sense) of the alt-futures, wherein we are seeing that left to their own devices, each of these people tilts slightly to one side of the good/evil equation.

He does point out that this theory doesn't prove why the flashes exist, however. It's pretty similar to what I said a few weeks back. And although it's probably not exactly on the money, the more flashes we see, the more it seems to be at least part of what they're trying to show.

[ArchStanton]

I also liked how he set it up to get off the island no matter who wins.

As I was watching this unfold I realized the writer's must have just watched A Fistful of Dollars/Yojimbo

[TomHicks]

I think in a few episodes the whole cast will gather off-island and step through a giant mirror and take the place of the island versions. Then Charlotte will try to sleep with all of them, despite having just met them.

[suavepebble]

In my dreams, Sawyer gets to the submarine, pushes a bunch of buttons, and then says, "Well, I don't get it."

[nadsat droog]

No mirror scene for Sayid. Because he's evil?

[kevin]

ALL IS FORGIVEN.

[TomHicks]

No mirror scene for Sayid. Because he's evil?

I did a quick Google, apparently Sayid has his moment of reflection in the window on the door of his brother's house.

[bridgetosolace]

It almost sounds like you're saying we should always assume there is a secret reason why the dialogue is bad.

I'm saying that some shows deserve the benefit of the doubt.

For me, Lost still has that benefit.

There's also a difference between erroneous dialogue and bad dialogue. My statement isn't about whether or not I think Ben expected to get the principal's job, just that either situation is possible with the given information. I honestly don't give a shit either way, since the story is also pretty similar in each case.

I mean, why do you think he DID expect to get the principal's job? Because he said it to a character he was trying to manipulate? With Ben's history of manipulating people, I would say it's almost more likely that he wasn't tell the truth to Arnzt.

And no, Lost has no obligation to tell me what's going on about anything. If you invested in this show for answers, you should have bailed a LONG time ago. This is a character driven show.

[drbristol]

For some reason, I also really liked smoke monster trying to identify as a human being....

I think he was totally playing Kate there - who better to talk about "mommy issue" with than a person with "daddy issues" (albeit everyone on that island has "daddy issues").

He uses the same trick - scare them (or redirect their fear/hate), get them alone and seemingly relate to them. He's attempted this with everyone - Richard (information), Sawyer (freedom), Ben (power), Claire (baby)...

He told Ben to meet them on Hydra even though he knew Widmore would be there - Widmore who wants to kill Ben. Then he sent Sawyer away - he is the only person Kate will let her guard down for in that group - to isolate her. (He also probably didn't care whether Sawyer was killed or not - he suspects Sawyer isn't all in - but it was a win/win for him either way.)

All good chess matches involve thinking a few moves ahead. The current moves might not look like much, but they're necessary for the later moves to work. We're moving pawns right now; after episode 9 or 10 I suspect the rooks and bishops will start flying around.

Now as to whether Miles coerced Nosebleed Charlotte to boink Sawyer just so she could...uhh...get into his other drawers? That one I'm still pondering.

New potential band name: Sad Flower.

[brianpalmer]

Speaking of Sepinwall commenters, Lepidoptera posted this brilliant observation about season six:

...[T]his season is, in my humble opinion, a train wreck, and the sideways timeline, has been a terrible contrast to the great early story-telling of the show. I call this the Mad Lib timeline, because I think one writer at a time was given 5 Mad Lib categories:
1. A Lost Character
2. A Profession
3. A Taboo Sexual Situation
4. A Random Thing To Do
5. A Criminal Act
6. Another Lost Character

1. SAYID (character) is now a CONTRACTOR (profession) who dangerously COVETS HIS BROTHER'S WIFE (sexual taboo). After a series of things related to this, he EATS EGGS (random thing to do) before he COMMITS MURDER (criminal act) and then in a crazy twist, he finds JIN (other character.)

2. BEN LINUS (character) is now a HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER (profession) who learns about COED VOYEURISM (sexual taboo). After a series of things related to this, he MAKES A TV DINNER (random thing to do) before he THREATENS BLACKMAIL (criminal act), and then in a crazy twist, he saves ALEX (other character).

3. SAWYER (character) is now a COP (profession) who HAS SEX WITH A MARRIED WOMAN/CRIMINAL, and UNPROTECTED SEX WITH AN ARCHAEOLOGIST (twofer on the sex acts). After a series of things relating to this, he WATCHES LITTLE HOUSE ON THE PRAIRIE and BUYS A SIX PACK OF MICKEYS (twofer on random things) before he PLOTS MURDER (criminal act), and then is sideswiped by KATE (other character).

[Junk]

It would be cool if, in side reality, Charlie came out with a solo comeback song called "I'm Not Anybody" and Claire fell in love with him after seeing him on the hospital t.v. and she sent him a youtube clip of her and he fell in love with her and they got together and they raised Aaron together and then Charlie O.D.'d

[TomHicks]

Speaking of Sepinwall commenters, Lepidoptera posted this brilliant observation about season six:

...[T]his season is, in my humble opinion, a train wreck, and the sideways timeline, has been a terrible contrast to the great early story-telling of the show. I call this the Mad Lib timeline, because I think one writer at a time was given 5 Mad Lib categories:
1. A Lost Character
2. A Profession
3. A Taboo Sexual Situation
4. A Random Thing To Do
5. A Criminal Act
6. Another Lost Character

1. SAYID (character) is now a CONTRACTOR (profession) who dangerously COVETS HIS BROTHER'S WIFE (sexual taboo). After a series of things related to this, he EATS EGGS (random thing to do) before he COMMITS MURDER (criminal act) and then in a crazy twist, he finds JIN (other character.)

2. BEN LINUS (character) is now a HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER (profession) who learns about COED VOYEURISM (sexual taboo). After a series of things related to this, he MAKES A TV DINNER (random thing to do) before he THREATENS BLACKMAIL (criminal act), and then in a crazy twist, he saves ALEX (other character).

3. SAWYER (character) is now a COP (profession) who HAS SEX WITH A MARRIED WOMAN/CRIMINAL, and UNPROTECTED SEX WITH AN ARCHAEOLOGIST (twofer on the sex acts). After a series of things relating to this, he WATCHES LITTLE HOUSE ON THE PRAIRIE and BUYS A SIX PACK OF MICKEYS (twofer on random things) before he PLOTS MURDER (criminal act), and then is sideswiped by KATE (other character).

After killing all those people for Linus, didn't Sayid start building houses with some sort of help the poor group? (Contractor) His brother's wife is the woman he loves, and she loves him. But he pushes her away because of all that torturing he did: He thinks he's a bad person. He was hungry? The killing of the people at the restaurant connects directly to him turning evil on the island.

Linus is a high school teacher, who we are first introduced to talking about a leader in exile, a leader later who will stage one final coup. COED VOYEURISM is a stretch for what happened. He fixes food for his ailing father, who Ben takes care of, in contrast to him murdering his abusive father in another time line -- they even do a call back to the poison gas when Ben changes his dad's oxygen. He threatens blackmail, but doesn't go through with it. So we see that this Ben is a decent guy. It also connects to what appears to be a major change of heart for Ben on the island. I think helping Alex was supposed to be in contrast to her being shot in the head on the island when he wouldn't surrender.

The off-island time lines have been showing us character changes and similarities: they introduce Sawyer pulling the same con he was running before he went to the island, but the big reversal is now he's a cop. But the not-so-big reversal is he's using his position to chase down and kill the con man who he blames for his parent's deaths. His ulterior motives are exposed by a woman whose job is to dig up things. (Are either of these sex acts taboo?) Sawyer had mentioned in a previous episode that he's a fan of Little House on the Prairie. I think this one completely punts on the random acts, he was going to go over and get re-laid. Will he or won't he kill the con man? Did he mistakenly kill that other man in Australia like he did pre-island? All of the characters seem to be in each other's orbits off-island, will the show explain why when the two stories merge -- something the producers have been very free in sharing.

These are fun. Are there more?

[TomHicks]

Wait, what are the taboo sexual situations in the Locke, Kate and Jack stories?

[isoS]

There are clear intellectual explanations for what is happening, but it's all academic: for many viewers, the whole concept of the side-flashes is not working on a dramatic or emotional level, and all the chance meetings and character overlaps just feel like fan-fiction (or at best those shitty "expanded universe" novels that really popular franchises like Star Wars get).

[Junk]

Yeah, I agree. I think most people get the point. The whole game has just lost a bit of it's luster.

I feel like the people who make Lost probably pay a little too much attention to their fans and their cult, and there seems to me to be a bit too much of a dependence on extras to fill in the blanks on this show. The show has developed into this weird thing where hardcore fans can get caught up in the Dharma websites and the fake airline websites and the videos from the guy on the boat and stuff and the show itself gradually became this perpetually self-explaining, self-referencing engine and maybe the heart of the show is in one of these side projects and no longer in the actual main event.

Having said that, I think it's still not possible to resolve the various issues in the show and also have the show retain the suspense and mind-blowingness of former seasons. We know it's going to end so we're not wondering where new characters might take the show, or where certain story arcs might go as much, because we know they're all more or less going to stop in a predetermined amount of episodes.

[brewcaster]

Does anyone else listen to the Official Lost Podcasts?

They mentioned something in a recent one that has me nervous about "getting the goods" from this show. I don't remember which mystery they were talking about, but they said it will get resolved/revealed, but not on the televised show.....

So, maybe they will do more "viral" videos,websites,summer camps, etc to explain some of this shit?

[TomHicks]

There are clear intellectual explanations for what is happening, but it's all academic: for many viewers, the whole concept of the side-flashes is not working on a dramatic or emotional level, and all the chance meetings and character overlaps just feel like fan-fiction (or at best those shitty "expanded universe" novels that really popular franchises like Star Wars get).

Then bail. Why spend so much energy on something that isn't satisfying?

[TomHicks]

Also, chance meetings and overlaps have been a big part of the series:

Shannon walked past Jack in the hallway of the hospital where her dad was taken after his car accident.

Kate ran into the mother of Sawyer's daughter.

Jack and Claire are half-siblings, who are brought together when Jack is flying their late father's body back to the U.S., but she was flying to L.A. to give up her baby.

Jack ran into Desmond while exercising.

Desmond ran into Charlie while Charlie was busking outside Widmore's office building.

Desmond entered a sailing race to impress the father of the woman he loves. The father used to be the leader of the Others.

Desmond spends time pushing a mysterious button in a hatch with a man who at some earlier period was a U.S. intelligence agent who oversaw an operation in Iraq in which Sayid was an operative.

Desmond was able to compete in the sailing race because he was given a boat for free from a woman who would later end up on the island. A woman who also spent time in a sanitarium with Hurley.

The man Sawyer blamed for his parents' deaths, and whom he spent his life hunting, was Locke's dad.

I have been going with a presumption that whatever made their lives intertwine previously is making it happen in this alterna-reality. I'm not sure it's been explained fully, but I thought the Jacob's touch episode made it seem as if all of these people have been chosen by him and all of their cross-overs were caused by their lives moving closer and closer to the island. But it's just another mystery on a show pretty dense with them. And if the mysteries aren't explained by the end, I will consider the entire series a flop. I don't think of this as The Wire, where season four is the pinnacle of TV and season five's serial killer subplot was very shaky, and then I can shrug off season five's missteps and still love the whole series. Lost is a very long high-wire act, and they will pull it off at the end or they won't.

That's why I am willing to wait until the end of the whole dealie. I still recognize that there have been boner lines of dialogue and the temple looks like a set from Land of the Lost (the bad TV show, not the bad movie).

[drbristol]

If the story logic of Lost comes around and chews off its own tail like The X-Files did, I will be very pissed.

And I don't mean that in the British vernacular sense of the word...although that will probably be one of my methods of healing.

[isoS]

Then bail. Why spend so much energy on something that isn't satisfying?

Because I'm at 96% complete and dammit, I'm getting those last eagle feathers! (oops wrong thread, but same sentiment.)

Also, like anyone who was fully under Lost's spell for seasons at a time, I still hold out hope that they pull it off. I don't see the harm in criticizing where the show is right now -- even if the rest of the season is amazing and I come away feeling like the series as a whole was a success (which I really hope happens), that won't make these episodes better in my eyes.

Also, the difference between the chance encounters in the past-season flashbacks and the chance encounters in the current side-flashes is that we didn't know what was going on then, and so the intersections enriched the mystery. Now we still don't really know what's going on, but we sure do know that it's all magicky and shit, so there's nothing surprising or interesting about the characters intersecting. It almost feels like the writer/producers are thumbing their noses at us for ever thinking those past intersections held any meaning beyond a vague, half-formed notion of "Well these people's lives are bound together by the island." I think many of us hoped the connections would be more concrete than that kind of mystical nonsense. (And hey, maybe it will be -- but they're running out of time and there are a lot more important things to explain than why Ernst works at the same school as Ben. I'll bet anyone $10 the answer is: "he just does." To which I repeat: whoopity-shit.)