This is the new games thread

[Berliner]

I guess I'm not getting you because every time I say something, you seem to shift the goal posts. You say that the video game industry only makes games with "super thin plot, lots of great big explosions." I took that to mean that they were the equivalent of disposable popcorn fare. When I said some games can be well received and fun, you say that you meant that its not carried by the story. When I said that it had a good story that was pretty integral to the game and that it could make people empathize with the main character, you said that you could still play it without the cut scenes. I mean you could, I guess, but why would you? And a lot of the story isn't told through the cutscenes anyway, but through actually playing it. I'm guessing you could probably play Heavy Rain without really paying attention to the story as well.

There are definitely Transformers 2 games out there, but there the last batch of games like AC2, ME2, Dragon Age, Arkham Asylum are hardly the equivalent of mindless popcorn fare, which was your original point, if I'm not mistaken. If not, are you really saying those games are like Tranformers 2?

[Me!]

I can't take it seriously when a videogame character is going through a serious situation to where I'm supposed to feel a huge emotional attachment to them, like if they're crying or something. It's pretty much the same reaction I had when all the cat people in avatar were crying about their tree fort being burned down.

For some reason I really don't like it when videogames try to take themselves so seriously. I like hoping around on monsters, shooting some aliens sometimes (while allowing me to skip through cut scenes,) and I really like punching and shooting fireballs at some weird looking dude/chick in a fighting game.

[Berliner]

Anyway, this isn't even my problem with the game. This game just looks like a huge bummer to me, and that's why I probably wouldn't play it. But I can understand other people's concerns that the game may be trying so hard to score in some areas that it's forgotten to be a playable game in the first place. I am a little confused with people's descriptions of it. I never really played Shenmue outside of friends' houses, but a lot of that game seemed to be beating people up and playing old sega arcade games. This game is making minigames out of pretty mundane things.

[bridgetosolace]

[blah blah blah, no one cares. There was more here, but it isn't worth it.]

I'd love it for a game to make me feel like shit. It would be such a change of pace compared to normal games that, if you're lucky, just exhilarate and excite you. The best movies make you feel a range of emotion, and I welcome the idea that games can be an experience rather than just a fun diversion.

[Me!]

I've had a game make me feel like shit. When I got Zelda OoT for the N64 I played it from 7:00am until 9:00 pm.

[nathansmart]

There's plenty of "experimental" games on the net where stuff like this is happening. I think the biggest thing about this game is that a huge company like Sony is putting a big budget on this type of play and so it will be interesting to see if these concepts can stretch beyond a 2-min flash game.

[ericluxury]

Story is a relatively unimportant part of games. I was going to call it icing on the cake, but I don't even think its that.
Here is my game=cake analogy:
basics (gameplay, controls, logic, difficulty, etc) - cake
atmosphere & uniqueness - icing
story - decoration on top of icing

There are story driven games that are great like Mass Effect, but Mass Effect would still be cool if you were to skip the cutscenes.

I only recently got into games again (skipped everything post-n64 except GTA games and occasional Tekken) and where the game industry is is pretty impressive to me. I'd hardly compare it to Transformers 2.

[ProfessorShutYoMouth]

I am pretty sure I am disappointed with the Battlefield Bad Company 2 demo.

[nathansmart]

Story is a relatively unimportant part of games. I was going to call it icing on the cake, but I don't even think its that.
Here is my game=cake analogy:
basics (gameplay, controls, logic, difficulty, etc) - cake
atmosphere & uniqueness - icing
story - decoration on top of icing

There are story driven games that are great like Mass Effect, but Mass Effect would still be cool if you were to skip the cutscenes.

I only recently got into games again (skipped everything post-n64 except GTA games and occasional Tekken) and where the game industry is is pretty impressive to me. I'd hardly compare it to Transformers 2.

Games are whatever you want them to be - the story can be a very important part of games if you want them to be.

[dan telfer]

If a video game does not have a cool story, there is a 10% chance I will like it. The Left 4 Dead series comes to mind as in that small percentile...

Wait a minute! I got tricked by someone posting their opinion as fact again! I don't need to defend my tastes! Of course things are important to some but not others!

(to the sky) AEE ESSS TEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

[SlyBattery]

Story is a relatively unimportant part of games. I was going to call it icing on the cake, but I don't even think its that.
Here is my game=cake analogy:
basics (gameplay, controls, logic, difficulty, etc) - cake
atmosphere & uniqueness - icing
story - decoration on top of icing

There are story driven games that are great like Mass Effect, but Mass Effect would still be cool if you were to skip the cutscenes.

I only recently got into games again (skipped everything post-n64 except GTA games and occasional Tekken) and where the game industry is is pretty impressive to me. I'd hardly compare it to Transformers 2.

I completely disagree with this. I for one would not be as interested in, say, the Metal Gear Solid games had they a weak story. There are some out there that don't care for stories, but there are many that do. I'm guessing the largest part of them are probably in Japan where not only are a lot of games made but RPG's tend to sell better than any other type of game (Star Ocean is the best selling xbox 360 game in Japan, where as Call of Duty 4 is around no. 31.)

Personally, I have always felt that you can pull of a really deep and involving story in a video game much better than you could in a movie. You are given more time and dialogue with the characters that pulls you in more than you could be in 2 or so hours. At the very least I think thats why certain directors are utilizing the medium to tell stories. And some games have really great stories if you can get over the fact that its being brought to you through a video game. I mean, at the rate movies are going now, it isn't much different than watching Avatar where more than half the movie is computer generated.

[ericluxury]

First, I apologize for the lack of 'in my opinion' in my post. I assume it when I am writing it, but I don't when I read others.

Most games to me have pretty basic and generic stories. How many games would make entertaining novels? Very few.
I think that the gameplay and atmosphere color how you view the story of a game more than you think. Dragon Age is a game I very much enjoyed. While I played it I recall thinking that I liked the plot of the game. But it was very generic. If the gameplay was 25% shittier, I might not have played it. (i.e. Fable which has a good enough story but is an awful game, in my opinion). If the atmosphere and setting had been 25% shittier I would have still played it but enjoyed it less because I would feel like I was constantly in the same place. If the story had been 25% shittier, I can't be sure I would notice.
I played that game for 60 hours or so and its hard for me to tell you what the story of that game was, except in incredibly broad strokes. I can easily recall awesome spell combinations, exciting moments of combat, being stuck at times making dialogue choices, but the overall plot? If I were to write it based on what I recall, you wouldn't be able to tell any difference between that and any other fantasy plot.
Arkham Asylum had great story, but I think what made it far more remarkable was its atmosphere and how easy it was to play.

When I think of my favorite games of all time, Tekken 3, Oblivion, Civilization series, Ultima 7, Dr Mario, any mid-nineties Madden, NBA Jam, the Warcrafts, the Diablos, the Mario games, Mass Effect etc. I don't think many of these games have great stories. Some of them have laughable stories.

[Berliner]

I point can to an era that was dominated by stories in games. Games like Monkey Island or Sam and Max were driven almost entirely through funny dialogue. The games themselves were nothing more than picking stuff up and putting it somewhere else, but what made them compelling was the characters and storyline.

My favorite game, Grim Fandango, has what is considered one of the best stories of all time. It would be a much lesser game without it.

[James Smann]

I think I'm in ericluxury's camp in regards to story. While I want video games to have a good story to keep me interested, I'm just as happy playing slash and burn shoot 'em ups if the gameplay is solid enough. If the controls are wonky, the arsenal of weapons is shit, or the environment isn't interactive though, the best story in the world won't save a game...This is on next-gen consoles I mean. Some of my favorite games growing up were "Quest" games from Sierra...and they weren't much to speak of action or gameplay-wise but the stories really did keep you interested. So just like movies, comedy, art in any form for that matter, it's all about what the viewer/consumer/player is wanting to get out of the experience.

[bridgetosolace]

I only recently got into games again (skipped everything post-n64 except GTA games and occasional Tekken) and where the game industry is is pretty impressive to me. I'd hardly compare it to Transformers 2.

I point can to an era that was dominated by stories in games. Games like Monkey Island or Sam and Max were driven almost entirely through funny dialogue. The games themselves were nothing more than picking stuff up and putting it somewhere else, but what made them compelling was the characters and storyline.

I was trying to use Transformers 2 as an analogy for the opposite of the game style that Berliner is talking about here. The only thing that possibly made transformers 2 compelling was the action, and the VAST majority of modern games fall into that same category.

It's ridiculous how caught up people got in that one aspect >_>

UMMM STORIES AREN'T LIKE CAKE DECORATIONS BECAUSE THEY AREN'T DELICIOUS.

I think there's a massive potential for a return to the type of games we used to make (that Berliner's pointed out), just with all the modern updated technology. That's all I was trying to say.

[jesterobobman]

Star Ocean has, in my opinion an absolutely ridiculous story. The fighting is fun though, which is what saves it from being a dud. The only games I've played(so far) on my 360 (a recent purchase) are star ocean and mass effect. While both have a similar basis of a story(An Earth Commander of a ship(Shepherd, Edge), an ancient race determined to destroy (Reapers, Grigori) and a lower intelligence species who are acting on that races will(Geth, Cardianon), Mass Effect gets through the story in a way that doesn't require plot holes, and the characters are far more interesting and realistic(I wanted to kill Lymle, kay), though ME is a shorter game than Star Ocean.

[nathansmart]

and there's a reason why Donkey Kong became the most popular arcade game - for the first time ever there was a story to follow - sure it was basic but it was a thousand times more engaging than "stick hit ball"

[Me!]

Ready to serve. Yes? My lord? What is it? Hello. Okay. RIGHT! Alright. Yes, me lord! Job's done! You're the king? I didn't vote for you! Oh, What? Y-uh huh. Now what? More work? Job's done! Leave me alone! Yes? Yes, me lord! Oh, What? I don't want to do that! I'm not listening! What is it? Job's done!

[MikeDinosaur]

First, I apologize for the lack of 'in my opinion' in my post. I assume it when I am writing it, but I don't when I read others.

Most games to me have pretty basic and generic stories. How many games would make entertaining novels? Very few.
I think that the gameplay and atmosphere color how you view the story of a game more than you think. Dragon Age is a game I very much enjoyed. While I played it I recall thinking that I liked the plot of the game. But it was very generic. If the gameplay was 25% shittier, I might not have played it. (i.e. Fable which has a good enough story but is an awful game, in my opinion). If the atmosphere and setting had been 25% shittier I would have still played it but enjoyed it less because I would feel like I was constantly in the same place. If the story had been 25% shittier, I can't be sure I would notice.
I played that game for 60 hours or so and its hard for me to tell you what the story of that game was, except in incredibly broad strokes. I can easily recall awesome spell combinations, exciting moments of combat, being stuck at times making dialogue choices, but the overall plot? If I were to write it based on what I recall, you wouldn't be able to tell any difference between that and any other fantasy plot.
Arkham Asylum had great story, but I think what made it far more remarkable was its atmosphere and how easy it was to play.

When I think of my favorite games of all time, Tekken 3, Oblivion, Civilization series, Ultima 7, Dr Mario, any mid-nineties Madden, NBA Jam, the Warcrafts, the Diablos, the Mario games, Mass Effect etc. I don't think many of these games have great stories. Some of them have laughable stories.

I think you're getting a little hung up on this notion that generic plots automatically mean a bad story, because I don't think it does. There are plenty of great pieces of writing that utilize fairly broad plotlines. Shakespeare wrote lots of great plots, but if you look at the plot of, say, King Lear, it's like, "King makes bad decision, things get bad as a result, then they get worse, then they get way worse, and then he dies in misery" but King Lear remains a great story because of the dialog, the atmosphere it creates, etc. I'd say it's actually the mark of a well-told story that you don't notice how generic the plot is until you look back on it. If you look at Braid for instance, the broad outlines of the plot, in which

Spoiler:  

a guy tells all about how he's going to save his girlfriend, and the end reveals that she wants to be saved from him,

is clever, if not totally novel, but the writing is bad enough that it's hard to care. I think whether a game's story would work in a novel is a pretty bad measure of how good it is, since most great experiences are great as a result of their use of a medium. I think "Ulysses" is a more important/better-written novel than "Jaws" or "Carrie, but that doesn't mean that Jaws and Carrie aren't more effective movies than Ulysses (yes, it exists), because their strengths aren't as inherent to the novel form. I have no idea whether the big twist in Super Metroid would work in a movie, but it works in a game, and that's all it needs to do. Cave Story has almost no plot, but I still find it very affecting.

I don't mean to sound so pretentious in a video game thread.

[TomHicks]

I am really disappointed that after the fleshy free-for-all in Dragon Age, that as far as I can find, there are no homosexual romances in ME2. Women with dudes, and dudes with women. The asari are switch hitters again, but biologically they are gender free, so that technically doesn't count as gay.