Fook, this was a good thread, and I killed it. More questions . . . ?
Fook, this was a good thread, and I killed it. More questions . . . ?
I gots a question -
I've performed eight times so far. I've performed one club night three times, and each time I did an entirely different set. All-in-all I've done like 30-40 minutes of different jokes and honestly, I've been lucky, I've been happy with like 90% of it.
So obviously I'm writing alot, it's so far my favorite thing about comedy, writing new material. But one thing I haven't really done is gone back and tweak my "old" stuff, or add tags etc..
A comedian friend of mine tells me I should now focus on perfecting a 10 minute set. Pick my best 10 minutes of stuff, and just keep tweaking that. He says that the audience deserves to hear your best material.
But I know if I just keep doing those same 10 minutes, I'll get bored to death. So I guess I need to find the balance between testing new material and perfecting my old stuff.
Each time I've gone back to the same club, I always fear the same people will be in the audience and they won't want to hear the same set. My comedian friends tells me "that's all in your head", that 99% of the audience is new.
There's one or two clubs I really like, so I'm thinking of testing new stuff there - then anytime I go elsewhere to perform, I'll do my perfected 10 minutes...
...what you guys think of all this?
Hahaha I was in the same boat you were in when I started out. If you can do mikes/shows with new audiences try tweaking the old stuff there because (please don't shoot the messenger here) but even the best jokes don't work sometimes.Originally Posted by Phil
Let's say you have a joke about Lost. It worked once with this crowd you speak of. But all of a sudden you do a spot with a new bunch of people and they give you blank stares and a cough. Bad comics like to blame the audience. The right thing to do is look at the joke and see what could be cut out, what can be elaborated on, etc.
If, in the worst case scenario, you can only perform at this one place and that's it, then throw some new jokes up top and close with some tweaked jokes. Ideally you would be tweaking more than Jesse Pinkman from Breaking Bad.
"You're a ghost!"- Tom Scharpling
Hey Phil,
If it's working for you, stop worrying about what advice others are giving you.
(Of course, I've just made it impossible for you to actually take that advice, haven't I?)
Seriously, you've done stand-up EIGHT TIMES. If you're having fun, if you feel you're being successful on-stage and if you don't feel like there's something significant standing in your way from continuing to progress and improve (or something stopping you from getting opportunities to perform, progress and improve)--then who could possibly tell you that you should be doing things any differently?
At this point...there's no pressure, no rush...no one's going to force you to quit because you're not doing it the way everyone else is thinking they should do it.
ESPECIALLY since your setting, surroundings and circumstances are unique. You don't need to quickly construct a bulletproof seven or showcase ten because the next step is "Live at Gotham" or "Ferguson/Kimmel/etc."--not the same way that comedians in NY or LA might feel they need to do (unless there are some English language comedy tv shows in Finland desperately looking for the next big thing and that's something you're desperate to get on as it would make your ability to get booked much easier.)
Unless there's something that's making you unhappy or frustrated about how your progressing in your comedy efforts, I don't think you need to change anything...certainly not just because other comedians think you should change.
THAT SAID...
1) The magic of stand-up comedy is in the ability to make it seem to any given audience that material you've told hundreds of times before feels like it is just coming directly out of your head at that moment.
If you think you'd be bored telling the same joke over and over again...or if you are so afraid of possibly telling the same joke to someone who has seen you before...to the point where you feel obligated to write new material every time you go up...then maybe there's something to forcing you to learn how to not seem bored by your own material or to get over your unnecessary fears.
The ability to perform the same material but make it seem fresh each time is a skill you should pick up...BUT, since you've only done comedy eight times...it isn't necessarily the most important skill you need to work on right now--especially if you're able to keep coming up with material that makes you happy for each performance.
2) One of the truisms that veteran comedians share with each other about new comedians is: However much time a new comedian tells you they have, they really only have 1/3rd of that time of material that is actually workable and solid.
The thinking behind that truism is this: Just because you've done a joke once...twice...a dozen times...doesn't mean that material can be counted on to be re-delivered for every audience and get the same positive reaction every time.
It isn't enough to say you have enough material to absorb the time...stuff that might work, might not work--but you want to be able to produce a strong, consistent set each time...of whatever length you say you have the material for...
3) Another truism that veteran comedians share about new comedians is: Those new comedians that say that they're killing probably haven't really and truly killed yet.
Worse...those new comedians who think they're killing won't know (and can't be told) that until the time when they actually DO kill...and then they'll realize how much better they have to be...so much better than what they've allowed themselves to be when they thought they were doing so good.
I worry sometimes, Phil, that you may be drowning in easy positive validation. Sometimes you need a hell gig just to slap you in the face and keep you from believing all of your early positive reviews...to remind you that it won't always be easy and to provide you a reason to learn the skills you'll need to improve. I mean, it's great to do well right out of the gate--but keep a skeptical attitude towards your success and be neurotic enough to think that you don't necessarily deserve it.
If you think that you've written your joke perfectly without having performed it, told the joke once and got a laugh with it and that you can now trap it in amber to have and hold for all time...you'll never learn the skills of actually hearing what an audience is laughing at, what they're losing connection with you over and how to rewrite that joke to make it stronger the next time you tell it.
...BUT...
While you should consider those three things and keep them in the back of your mind, that doesn't mean that you should immediately drop what you've been doing or how you've been doing it. Certainly not if you're enjoying how you're doing things now and if you're as successful as you want to be doing things the way you're doing now.
Just know that when you've done 100 shows, compared to the 8 you've done so far, you may think a little differently about things...
pg--Quick summary: "My advice is to stop listening to anyone's advice, but here's some more advice for you to not listen to."--seattle
Last edited by pg13; May 12, 2009 at 5:48 PM. Reason: Clarity.
Really true. And this also does the great service of making sure that you're resolve is strong. There is nothing like the first time you truly bomb. And if things are going as well as they seem to be going for you, Phil, chances are that you are going to have to deal with it eventually. It makes you question everything you've done up until that point. If you are able to step back, objectively assess what worked and what didn't, and then decide to jump right back on the horse, then you've overcome a hurdle that often messes with people in a major way.
There is tricky balance between the insanity required to keep doing stand up no matter and the realism needed to know when adjustments are needed.
This early in the game, I would focus on understanding the craft of being on stage. The small touches that draw in the crowd and give a sense of poise. Keep adding in new material but don't be afraid the work the old until you can do it at the drop of a hat. If you are worried about repetition, focus on trying out new tags.
'A third' is being really generous. Most new guys don't understand how much they will hate their old jokes and past selves in a few years. I watch my old tapes when I'm feeling too good about myself.
I'm a comic. My website is mark-agee.com
I don't know what I'm talking about, but talking about this ruins it for me. Like any art form, you have to really reject everything everyone tells you and figure it out for yourself. Getting advice on comedy has only slowed me down and made me take fewer chances.
The people I like and respect most would never value anyone's opinion over their own when it came to their own personal art.
I come at this from an art school brat angle though... but in everything I've ever done, drawing, painting, sculpture, writing, film etc.... the only good things I do, the things I can be proud of, are the things where I didn't listen to anyone and did what I thought was right.
Stand up comedy by committee to me is why the 80's boom died a violent death.
I'm a jerk.
I don't think you're a jerk.
I don't necessarily agree with you, but that doesn't make you a jerk. I hope it doesn't make ME a jerk.
I think stand-up comedy can be artistic--the best of it can be, certainly. However, I don't think that stand-up comedy is best defined as an "art"--I think that it is better defined as a craft. A craft can be studied, learned, improved upon...
Certainly the best crafts can be pursued in an artistic way...and I think stand-up comedy falls into that category.
But even if you consider it an art--I disagree that in any art form you have to reject everything that everyone tells you. I also think you'd be surprised at how the people you like and respect actually do value SOME opinions--at least as it INFORMS their own opinions.
"Getting advice on comedy has only slowed me down and made me take fewer chances" is the basis for a great piece of advice--which is to trust your instincts and risk more.
Would you have someone reject that advice out of hand simply because it was advice coming from someone else?
And comedians giving each other advice is not why the comedy boom died. The blame rests solely on "funny suspenders."
pg--I happen to think there's a lot to be learned from studying a dead frog.--seattle
I'm just saying that when you're starting out, you don't have anyone to answer to... so you shouldn't answer to anyone.
I don't think it's a craft when it's done well either. I've seen craftsmen doing comedy and I respect what they're doing. I've seen artists doing comedy and I laugh.
You can be a working comic and be a craftsmen, but if you're trying to be something more, you need to be an artist.....
You can analyze comedy, your sets, your bits, your jokes... to death. That doesn't make you funny or honest or anything I want to see.
Again, I'm an art school brat, but I feel like if you're just doing it to make people like you then you should quit. There needs to be a healthy dose of selfishness for me to give a shit about what you're doing.
I've had art teachers, other artists, other filmmakers who've given me good advice... but if I didn't take everything and make it self centered and self serving and personal than it wouldn't be worth doing.
Anyone can tell jokes. If your your comedy isn't selfish, I don't care about it.
I don't consider myself a comedian on any level, but I am a fan and I see live comedy all the time. I can say that I see a lot of middle acts, a lot of openers who have worked really hard to refine their "craft". They have a solid 10-20 that works in clubs... and then the Headliner gets up... Bamford, Todd Glass, Pardo, Gould etc. etc.... when they get up on stage they aren't craftsmen, they are artists. They are at a level beyond what proceeded them... and it's ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS because they had the guts at some point in their path to decide to be completely true to themselves and not listen to what other people were telling them to do.
That's what I respect. The club comic with a tight 20 can go fuck himself for all I care. That shouldn't be what anyone is shooting for.
Last edited by TimBuktu; May 12, 2009 at 9:03 PM.
I'm with Chad.
It comes down to whether or not you actually believe that comedy is an art form or not. Imagine someone with paint and a blank canvas asking what they need to do to be successful. It's ridiculous.
There's a short list of things you probably shouldn't do (go way past the light, flake on gigs), and no list at all of what you should do. It's art!!
"Even gutter hags trump pretty boys." - BabyCakes
I think that's what makes AST. We consider it art. Crafts are what moms make. I value comedy as an art form. Calling it a craft makes me want to spit. Expending a bunch of energy to make sure tourists and party goers are satisfied is just wasted energy to me. I hate club comedy for that reason. You might as well be animatronic bears playing instruments.
Last edited by TimBuktu; May 12, 2009 at 9:15 PM.
What are the general rules about referencing previous comics in your act? It was touched on earlier, but only a little bit.
Could you be a little more specific?
"Even gutter hags trump pretty boys." - BabyCakes
For not wanting to get into a word war, you're certainly poking the bear with a stick an awful lot.
Until you edited your first post, I was willing to point out how much our take on comedy has in common...and to downplay our differences for the benefit of a productive discussion. Now that I see how your tone has shifted, I'm amassing my troops on the border and I'm ready for a war of typing attrition... Good luck to you, Chad...for there will be blood. Oh yes, there will be blood.
I don't believe there's any need to expect that comedy should come fully formed from the head of Zeus for it to be valid.
I've fought enough "poseur" wars in my years in the music business to see through the false limitations of those who think that the act of creation should just be "magical" or "without craft"--I always point those people to a group called The Shaggs and ask them if THAT'S what they had in mind.
Whether or not you're aware of your influences, whether or not you're aware of the skills and techniques you're employing...no one is creating something out of nothing. The benefit of knowing your influences and learning from their process, from honing your skills and mastering your techniques is how you can then utilize them to craft what you're inspired to create.
The problem you describe isn't about craftsmanship, per se...it is that one can become somewhat skilled at a craft that one creates nothing original with...someone who lacks inspiration, imagination or any skill beyond simple craftsmanship.
I, too, am not a fan of comedians who lack imagination...who may understand craftsmanship but don't put it to any interesting uses. However, that doesn't mean that my favorite comedians purposefully seek to avoid techniques that could help them bring their ideas to full fruition just for the sake of being artistically pure or severe.
What I find interesting is that the same list of performers that you claim are "artists and not craftsman" would be included in MY list of comedians who understand their craft and do so in artistic ways. Bamford, Pardo, Glass, and ESPECIALLY Dana Gould (who remains my strongest influence from my first days of pursuing comedy) are ALL fine examples of comedians who, I feel, are masters at their craft...who might be some of the best at utilizing their honed skills to deliver the kind of comedy that they feel inspired to perform...
Hating on "club comedy" is just an arbitrary distinction. It may help you feel special about yourself, but you're just wasting your time hating on things unnecessarily.
Like the comics you like...do the comedy that you want to do... We agree on these things. War is over, if you want it.
pg--Punk rock championed the lack of ability of those performing it, because it was absolutely true that you didn't NEED to be a virtuoso to create compelling music. The problem was it wasn't necessarily a virtue to be a musician who couldn't play their instrument...because that limited what you could express and whether you could produce what you imagined in your mind. The key was that it shouldn't be about the virtuosity, but what that craftsmanship helped you create. That's why I've always been a post-punk sort of guy...a very art-school position to take, I always thought.--seattle
Beating the music metaphor into the ground, if I were to be asked who I enjoy more, Joey Ramone or Joe Satriani, it's Ramone by a mile. I respect Satriani for being able to do what he does, but apart from that, there's nothing there.
Does this even make sense any more?
And have you ever met someone who's really into Satriani or Malmsteen or Rush? Yeesh, case closed.
"Even gutter hags trump pretty boys." - BabyCakes
I agree that over analyzing something tends to corrupt the artistic process to a certain extent . I genuinely agree with most of what you are saying especially the point about being a "craftsman" or an "artist", which I think is particularly important. That is the important difference, the difference who see comedy as the means to some end or as the end itself. The difference between someone who sees stand up as simply something to do or something that must be done.
However, I'm split on this topic at least when it comes to advice. Some general rules of thumb are useful to at least be aware or, especially when it comes to the parts of comedy that don't really involve the art; things like general etiquette and the business end of things. Knowing when to go make the step from open mics to larger shows and paid gigs. I think asking about these things can help someone avoid making some really easily avoidable mistakes.
But I, like you, tire a bit of advice about the creative end. Especially repeat questions about simple things. These are things that the artist should work out on stage. They should throw caution to the wind and try what they think will work, what they think should be done on stage.
I'm not sure if advice and analysis in general is the problem. I think it falls upon the people asking to step back and see if the question they are asking is one that they can't answer themselves. I think the trick is figuring when advice might be needed and if the advice you receive is applicable to you and your art. That and taking the training wheels off, killing your inhibitions, and simply doing what you feel is right.
EDIT: So, I realized that Scammy said what I wanted to when he said "There's a short list of things you probably shouldn't do, and no list at all of what you should do."
Last edited by Alex Mac; May 12, 2009 at 11:24 PM.
pg13, Alex, Tim....many many thanks again for your detailed feedback!
Yeah I totally agree, it's been too easy, I've been lucky. But this is Finland, the most homogeneous place in the world, I understand the audience very well cause they're all the same. Working with such diverse crowds as NY and LA must be the hardest in the world.I worry sometimes, Phil, that you may be drowning in easy positive validation. Sometimes you need a hell gig just to slap you in the face and keep you from believing all of your early positive reviews...to remind you that it won't always be easy and to provide you a reason to learn the skills you'll need to improve. I mean, it's great to do well right out of the gate--but keep a skeptical attitude towards your success and be neurotic enough to think that you don't necessarily deserve it.
But I'm looking forward to bombing. But then again, I always feel like shit after a gig, it's only later when I watch the tape I feel a bit better.
I don't see why people have such a hard time with the idea that it's an art AND a craft. They complement each other. That's why they're taught together at camp.
Last edited by Kentock; May 13, 2009 at 6:49 AM.
I understand that there is craftsmanship to it, and that it takes years of work to find your voice and do it at a high level.
I think we essentially agree Peter. I was thinking about it more last night. To continue with your music analogy... There's a thing here once a year where around 20 dudes play Hendrix songs in a bar. Some of them are amazing craftsmen, they can hit every note exactly the way Jimi did.... but it has no life at all.
That's what I meant, I had been drinking. I just mean that I see a lot of guys who work really hard, do 4 open mikes a week, MC at Acme... Feature at Acme...... And they're terrible because all they have is craft. They are so obsessed with their material that they forget to have fun, have a personality... have a take on anything.
They do material that literally anyone could do if they took the time to memorize the beats, and they do it into the ground. It's just boring to me. Like I said, it's like watching Chuck E. Cheese robots.
To me there is something different about being an artist and doing it with the intent of producing art. A lot of the questions I see in this section of the site aren't from people who want to make art. They are from people who want to be liked over everything else.
This whole "what would people like" just rubs me the wrong way. People don't know what they'd like until they see it. If you explain what Maria Bamford does to someone, they wouldn't get it. If they saw her, they'd love her. The rest of it feels like shows on a cruiseship. Sure a lot of people like it, but who gives a shit.
I act like I'm fucking Picasso or something and I make tit jokes all the time.... but I do feel like I'm trying to do something of my own though, and I don't think what I do could be replicated and I'm proud of that.
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