I sent the $250 in cash, so I hope you don't mind compensating me for the shipping costs.
Yeah, I'll definitely move the stand next time. Seems obvious now.
I'll check out the place in Royal Oak when I'm back for the summer since that's the closest to me. I'm gonna' need to find places over the summer.
Word. I did a really really small coffee shop in the summer; the audience was like maybe 6 or 7 people total, with at best 4 actually paying attention at any given time. I realized halfway through that they simply WERE NOT going to be receptive to any long multi-part Chapelle-like stories, and that I wished I'd written down (or better yet memerized) more of my one-liners.Originally Posted by Alex Mac
Hey ASR,
You've gotten a lot of carrot here...so, here comes the stick.
I watched your clip. It wasn't very good.
You say that you haven't bombed yet. This clip says otherwise.
Some here have told you that it's good for someone's fourth time. You seem to agree with that assessment. Comedy is only judged in one way: is it funny or not? That's it. Funny or not. There are no qualifiers given for lack of experience.
Sorry not to rush forward and validate your dream here...but just get it in your head that you have to aim higher, get better quickly and don't expect us to want to see it until you do.
You're not good now...but that's to be expected. You don't know how not good you are because you haven't experienced being good yet, you can't compare what you've done to anything else...and THAT'S to be expected.
Now, to bring in something I said to Phil in the other thread--this shouldn't be disheartening to you, because you're right on schedule for someone doing this for only their fourth time. You're going to suck...but that shouldn't stop you. You're going to make mistakes, but that's how you learn what you need to do to get better. If you were good now, how could you improve?
But, since you seem to believe this was good, let me point out some specifics about how it wasn't good...to help you get your head on straight.
1) You start the clip talking to an audience member at start about how you'd planned to ignore him.
--I get it, you're in a room that doesn't yet know how to behave for a comedy show. It would be good to get a host who can explain to the audience that comedy really only works when you pay attention, that people shouldn't talk during the show, that heckling isn't allowed, that cell phones have to be turned off...etc. SOMEONE has to get people on the side of the show, get them to WANT the show to be good, get them to cheer in hopes of a good show.
Then, when you take the mic...you set the tone for how your part of the show is going to go. So, when you start off by responding to someone who may have yelled something out...you're training the audience that you'll respond to things that they yell out. You're encouraging them to yell stuff at you...and I don't think you're quite ready to handle all comers yet.
Obviously, this isn't the optimal setting for you to learn how to do what you want to do. That said, if this is the environment available to you, you'll have to make certain that developing the ability to command the stage becomes a high and urgent priority.
2) You open your set with a joke about how Jews love money.
--Wow. Hacky AND offensive AT THE SAME TIME...and that's the first impression you give of yourself through your material.
You dug yourself into a mighty hole right from the start.
3) When joke died, you repeated "seriously".
--That's a weird verbal tic. Are you TRYING to point out to everyone that the joke died? Are you suggesting that there was an intended ironic component to that awful joke and you're signaling that to the audience?--because I didn't buy that...
4) When joke still died, you tried to point out the "clever" part of the joke.
--"Smell the sound of it" must have seemed clever to you when you wrote it...as you try to highlight it by repeating it to the audience. This might work for Andy Kindler, who successfully works his "failure to connect" schtick into his comedic persona...but I don't think you're doing this on purpose. I think you wanted people to notice this clever thing you said.
They heard what you said the first time you said it. Whether or not they found it clever...they didn't find it funny. Repeating something that they didn't find funny draws attention to the fact that they didn't find it funny, and you lose credibility.
You can't argue someone into laughing...and you'll learn that "being clever" doesn't always translate on stage.
5) Made a joke about hating tall people. Call them biggers.
The fact that you put this right after the "Jews love money" joke and talked about how you don't really hate anyone other than tall people indicates that you understand that the first joke might offend some people...which makes it worse that you did it in the first place.
John Vorhaus (author of "The Comic Toolbox") would describe this thing about tall people as a jokeoid--it's got elements from which a joke can be created, but it's not a joke...yet. It needs something...context, perhaps...development...emotional connection.
The jokeoid screams out "WHY do you hate tall people?" and it wants you to make that funny.
Then, you might want to consider developing the biggers idea. Lots of potential comedic tension inherent there...but you chose to dump it out there like a cheap one-liner.
6) Interesting factoid about yourself.
--You say that like anyone is listening to you or cares about you...and this audience, clearly, isn't and doesn't. Thus, this phrase becomes a needless waste of words that gives ammunition to a hostile audience.
Be bold. Say what you mean. Strip away the bullshit that doesn't help you build to a laugh.
7) No sense of smell.
Good topic. There are many funny things you can say about how this is a bad thing...and many funny things you can say about how this is a good thing.
You skip it entirely to go after a sidetrack premise.
8) No smell, no taste because of no smell, no hearing because you were a drummer...
--Far too much exposition for a set-up.
Have something funny to say about not having a sense of smell.
Then bring up the fact that you have no sense of taste because of lacking a sense of smell and have something funny to say about that...
Then, talk about how on top of all that, you can't hear because you were a drummer. You can choose to say something funny about this or get right to your original joke about how those who lose senses get super-senses.
And the direction I'd go would be to say that because you've lost so many of your senses, you DO have a super sense--maybe you've got x-ray vision and you can see everyone in the audience naked. EVERYONE. "No offense to some of you, but overall, I think I'd rather smell my roommate's farts." (Ba-dump-dump-CHING!)
Then you can deny it...and say that you've pissed because you didn't get any super-senses... (leading back to...)
9) Ticklish. Doesn't help me.
--You seem to be more ticklish. AND THAT WON'T HELP ME FIGHT CRIME, WILL IT?
Just being extra-ticklish is a personal anecdote...and only your friends will care.
Make it a joke meant to tell a group of people by imagining the consequences of being extra-ticklish. ("Now they won't let me be a spy! Nothing in the Geneva Convention against coochi-coo!")
10) Note card held up.
--You were barely on stage for three minutes...you needed a note card? Why should the audience care about your performance when you obviously don't?
Remember, the illusion we're trying to create is that these ideas are just coming to our heads and we're just sharing them with the audience. You bring the note card up so prominently, you destroy that illusion.
11) Wal-Mart. They have everything. Two most suspicious items.
--I think people know what Wal-Mart is...so skip the needless explanation and go right to your premise.
Maybe even add some conflict to it. Say "My friends and I like to play this game. We go to Wal-Mart and see who can buy the two items that are most disturbing when bought together."
12) Rope & a bar stool. Shovel & a garbage bag. Jergens & a Barbie doll.
--I'll be honest, I didn't get "rope & a bar stool" until just now...it's suicide, yes? I don't think that's as immediate as the others...and you really only need three examples.
Say Jergens Lotion...not just Jergens. It'll work better.
Part of me wants to suggest a six-pack of socks instead of Barbie doll...but that's a matter of taste, not a complaint.
13) "Wait, I got it."
--You're not really doing an act-out in your version. You don't need false phrases like this in telling the joke.
But when you put it in context of a contest...you get a stronger reason for doing at least a minor act-out...and one with a more compelling pay-off.
"Those were good, but I knew I had the winning combination when I walked up and plopped down MY choices..."
14) A pregnancy test & a single coat hanger. Big reaction...not big laughs.
--Abortion = shock value. It'll always get a reaction...but it's polarizing and the reaction it gets isn't always laughs...and laughs are what you're aiming for...
The reason I suggested making it a contest is that you get the audience thinking what they might choose to win such a contest...it opens up the darkside in their own mind. That involves them...and so, when you go to this as your winning entry...they'll still react strongly to the shock, but they'll also realize the competitive value of it...and their own complicity in it.
(Add to the drama by reporting on the clerk's reaction. "I could tell by the look on her face that I'd won...but when I called out to my friend who bought the shovel and the garbage bag and said 'Hey, wait for me!'--THAT'S when she called the cops.")
15) Note card again.
--Here's a pro-tip: If you really can't go on without having a note card as a safety blanket, bring up a drink with you and put your note card on a stool/chair next to your drink, like it's a napkin for the drink. If you need to refer to your notes, take a sip from your drink...and the audience doesn't really register that you're looking at your notes. It works.
16) Extreme Makeover Home Edition--family doesn't like house w/act out.
--Again, I think you need to invest some emotional boldness into your topics. Love the show, hate the show...make it something you NEED to talk about. Make it seem like it matters.
This is your first attempt, in this set, of doing an act-out. Note that an act-out can only highlight why an idea is funny...you still have to have a funny idea. I just don't think you sold the funny idea...so, the act-out just lengthens something that didn't make people laugh originally.
17) NO PAY OFF
--...and you didn't have anything to add to the idea in your act-out. So, it just sort of ended without any pay off for the time spent watching you do the act-out.
Remember, the longer you spend getting to the punchline, the bigger the laugh has to be to justify the effort getting there. (That's why a corny one-liner can work...because it is efficient.)
18) Pokemon-Digimon-
--"Let's just say I'm a big Pokemon fan...because I'm nine years old...and Japanese...and a girl."
If you're going to use a specific example, then use it. If you're talking about a former Pokemon fan who is now into Digimon getting a room based entirely around Pokemon, then you've got to talk about what Agumon (or MetalGreymon) would do to Pikachu.
If you're going for that Patton-y "My fellow nerds will get every reference I make" vibe, you've got to go all the way. (And you've still got to make it funny. Patton isn't funny because he makes weird references, he's funny because he makes those specific references work.)
And one way to go with this is the way you did...to take two examples that are very close to each other--I get that. You could go the other way too...what if the kid who gets a whole room dedicated to Pokemon isn't into Pokemon anymore...he's into Pornography.
Might make the fact that he's thrown himself face down onto that big Pikachu bean bag more disturbing...
19) No sold not having a pay off...reaction like an alt-comic.
--You didn't react at all when the joke just ended without a laugh. In pro-wrestling, when someone hits you and you react it's called "selling"...but if someone hits you and you don't react, it's called "no selling". That's kind of what you did there.
This can be funny if you meant to do it.
20) Long note card look.
--Three minutes on stage...and you needed three looks at your note card.
That suggests that you can't keep more than a minute's worth of information in your head at any given time. That's the sign of a brain injury, you know. Are you okay?
21) Want to see something cool? Underwear.
--That wasn't cool.
22) Audience reacted properly.
--They laughed AT you and how uncool what you just did was. They basically shouted that you were a hack...that you were a prop act like Carrot Top. They ridiculed your thought that this was in anyway funny, original or worth having done.
And even worse...there was no point to your having done it. You pretended to pull your underwear off FOR NO REASON AT ALL.
23) Seriously, seriously.
--Again, it seems like you want to try on a character who does stupid hacky shit as some sort of meta-comedy play on the hacky traditions of stand-up comedy.
That's some advanced course black diamond shit...and you're still trying to stay on your skis on the bunny hill.
Or, you may be doing it subconsciously. If so, identify it and stop doing it.
24) Heckler response.
--You lost control of the audience when you did the underwear stunt. Someone yells at you about Carrot Top and you asked a question "Can Carrot Top pull off his underwear?"
That, of course, opened the door to the person who yelled the first thing to ANSWER your question...thus you lost even more credibility and control.
(You COULD have heard "Carrot Top" and then smelled your underwear and replied "No, it's not Carrot Top...just laundry day..." and remained in control.)
Then you dealt with another person yelling something at you...without regaining control of the room...and by that point any momentum you had is gone.
Perhaps you'll gain more command of the stage when you get more confidence. You'll definitely gain more command of the stage when you start getting some laughs.
25) Buy my cds.
--Total hack joke...being done by countless shitty comics across the country. If you think you wrote it, you didn't. Drop it IMMEDIATELY. If you know you didn't write it but decided to do it anyway, you need to never do anything like that again.
So, there it is. There's the stick. Now that you've stopped patting yourself on the back for how good you thought you were doing, you can get back to the task of concentrating on getting better.
You've got a ways to go...but, really, you're right on schedule.
pg--And I'd take this clip down. As I said in that other thread, the internet is forever. It isn't representative of how good you might become.--seattle
I really appreciate all the time you put into that, thank you. If I put on the impression that I thought I was good, ha, sorry. No. The one thing I've got going for me is that I'm somewhat grounded and convinced that I'm absolutely terrible, which I am right now.
I'm well aware that I've got a LOOOONG way to go and right now this is just an embarrassment.
I know exactly what you mean about how "the internet is forever," which is why I was weary of posting this video online. I did, however, so I could get some genuine feedback. And you followed through. I've taken everything you said to heart.
All I know is that stand-up comedy is one of the few directions that I really want to take in my life, and I'm finally getting started and I'm well aware that it's going to be a long journey. I watch a lot of stand-up comedy and I'm convinced I have a good sense of humor, but obviously the problem is actually managing to be funny on stage.
1: Gotcha'. The film started a little late. I opened with a horrible joke about asking the audience to raise their hand if they wanted to have sex with me. It was incredibly stupid of me (and unfunny), and it did indeed lead to the audience immediately talking back to me to the point where the video starts.
2: I actually cut down the Jew jokes quite a bit on this performance. It's a lot more about my childhood growing up in a Jewish neighborhood. I also used to point out that I was Jewish myself. I'm not a fan of the bit but I've been told it's my funniest stuff. Personally, I've been trimming it down every performance. If it comes off as hacky I might as well just drop it completely.
3: I have NO idea why I was saying "Seriously" so often. That's the first time I've ever done that. I was aware of it only too late, but the point is that I am indeed aware.
4: I didn't even write "smell the sound," I just said it incorrectly. Everything I said after that was just me trying to remember where I was going next because I threw myself off and made a terrible attempt at saving the joke.
5: This is one of my favorite jokes and I'll definitely attempt to expand on it.
6: Gotcha'. I'm trying to find a better segway to this.
7: I'm planning on writing a lot more about my lack of sense of smell, so I'll definitely expand on that.
8: Hmm. You're right.
9: I don't know for sure if you got that I was talking about how my sense of touch is the only thing that's amplified, but if you didn't get it, then I clearly only have myself to blame and that just makes things even worse.
10: Next time I go up I'm not bringing the notecard. I think the only reason I look at it is because I brought it up there in the first place. I don't really need it. It's just, since it's there, I used it.
11-14: I definitely like the idea of elaborating on the competition aspect of it. I like what you're saying about how that'll open up the audience's dark side.
16: Alright.
17: Yeah, it was shit. I realized I didn't have anywhere to go from there.
18: Originally the joke was that the kid liked trains, so they made his room into a toy train paradise, and he gets back and says "Well, I said I liked trains, not fill my room with them." Earlier that night, I thought of the Pokemon/Digimon approach instead and went with it. I'm not really trying to appeal to the nerd crowd but I do understand what you're saying.
19: What would have been the proper reaction? Like... I don't know what I'm getting at.
21: It was a terrible idea and I feel ridiculous for it.
22: The guy who shouted the Carrot Top thing was actually a fellow comedian. Regardless, it was a ridiculous prank that I thought would be hilarious and I'm certainly not going to use it again.
23: I'm trying to work on my stage persona and I really have no idea what I was trying to accomplish out there.
24: Yep. In time, I hope.
25: Darn. I was actually proud of myself for that one. Roger that.
Once again, I really appreciate that you took the time to tear me apart like that, it's exactly what I was looking for. I'm never proud of anything that I do, so the process of critiquing myself is very hard since I'm not the best judge. It's great to have some real detailed responses from an unbiased party.
I've got a lot of work to do on my material and performance, but since I'm committing myself to this, I'm sure I'll slowly figure it out in time. I expect it to take a while and I'm open to all the help I can get.
I get ahead of myself sometimes.... New doctor says leg's fine, turns out he's right. I retract my statement...
Last edited by CaptainBreakfast; February 19, 2009 at 1:04 AM.
I am going to be in NYC for a few weeks, and while I am excited to try getting up in front of new people, it's also quite nerve-wracking. Meep. Also, god damn there's so many open mics to choose from!
pull a neil hamburger and bomb on purpose. i did it as a joke with my friends and it was the most refreshing experience of my career.
I wondered how you'd respond to my reply, ASR. Don't go the other way and beat yourself up...but you can take pride in having a thick skin, which every comedian needs to either have or build up.
So, good on ya there, mate!
And you took my remarks (as stickish as they were) in the spirit in which they were offered...they were meant to be constructive...so, bonus points for that!
And your reward? Comments to your replies to my remarks! WOOOOOOO!
pg--I'll get to those after dinner. A dreamcrusher's got to eat.--seattle
Also a great way to piss on an audience and everyone who isn't you or your friend at the show.
I did it once, thought it was a good idea at the time, regretted it ever since. To bomb for the sake of bombing is a dick move.
Yeah, I'm hard on myself but I've also got a lot of confidence and drive. So it all evens out.
I do a lot of writing and cartoons and I've recently gotten into writing, directing and acting in short films with friends... and as much as I love to do those things, I'm never satisfied with my work. The two kind of go hand-in-hand. At the very least, I know that I've always got room to improve and the best way for that is to listen to others that have helping words. You seem to know what you're talking about, so I appreciate it.
Eat well, dreamcrusher.
Dreamcrusher fed. Dreamcrushing resumes.
ASR,
The following comments link to your replies to my remarks...and the numbers correspond to your replies.
1) I am a strong believer that one should avoid needless rhetorical questioning and audience polling. Better to simply and boldly state your opinion rather than inviting uncontrolled audience participation when you have no plans to do anything with their responses.
That said...I want you to examine that unseen opening bit of yours. You asked the audience to raise their hands if they wanted to have sex with you. Was that it? Was that the joke? Why would that have been the joke...because you're somehow inherently undesirable? What a weird position of weakness/lack of confidence THAT indicates.
Your first bit should be a short joke that gets a laugh that tells the audience "OK, if I pay attention to this person, he seems to be able to make me laugh." It instills confidence. A little self-deprecation might work here...but totally disemboweling yourself is counterproductive to what you want to achieve.
"I'm definitely glad to be here tonight as there are many attractive women here that I would like to have sex with. That's why I'm going to try to be EXTRA funny tonight. The way I figure it, if you laugh at me here...you might take me back to your dorm room for the night...so, you can laugh at me some more..."
...that'd be a way to use the same basic idea in a way that isn't completely self-flagellating and self-defeating.
2) It isn't necessarily hacky to do jokes about being Jewish (although, by sheer volume of that which has come before, it might be hard to find a fresh, original observation on the subject. Of course, hard doesn't mean impossible.) It's definitely hacky when the only thing you have to say about being Jewish is that they "sure do love money!"
As far as people telling you that it's your best joke--that might be a bigger reflection on your other material. It might also remind you that some people are filled with hate.
5) Do you really hate tall people? If so...why do hate them? There's where you should start...because it'll have a ring of truth to it. Then, feel free to exaggerate things to make those feelings funny.
And then you can get a lot of mileage by using the language of racism/sexism/discrimination to express your hatred of tall people...you'd be taking a simple bit of wordplay (biggers) and turning it into satire.
6) Silly comedian, segues are for kids.
Learn from Daniel Tosh. "I don't do segues. Some comedians do. They'll say 'I was just at the mall'--No, you weren't...tell your joke."
A pause, a look down and a look up--and you're ready to change topics. Unless your transitional phrases help get you to a laugh, you needn't bother with them.
9) I don't associate being ticklish with an improved sense of touch. I think it's funnier if it isn't...like it's just some random personal trait that got enhanced.
19) I couldn't tell if you meant to no sell the failure of the joke or not. You didn't do anything wrong...I was just curious about your intentions.
22) A fellow comedian yelled something out? That's unfortunate. You guys are dealing with so many other issues at that particular venue, to undercut each other just seems cruel and unnecessary.
One of the things that every nascent scene needs is a commitment to do things the right way for the sake of every other member of that scene. You'd be astonished how much better shows go when everyone is pulling in the same direction...when every comedian can trust that they won't be undercut by each other.
Borrowing a page from Judy Carter, do you have a comedy buddy? Another comedian--not just a friend--who you can bounce ideas off, who will bounce idea off of you, who can help to motivate you to keep going to open mics?
You don't want a non-comedian friend, because they've invested in your friendship...so, they can't give you accurate feedback...and they haven't got anything invested in comedy, so they lack the knowledge or interest to be of any real help.
You can take it further than that, too. If there are a few comedians that do that open mic...consider trying to set up a group get together, once a week...meet for a couple of hours. It builds community and it can help everyone involved get better at a faster rate.
And one last piece of advice. When you're writing, don't allow yourself to stop when you've written one joke on any given premise. Make yourself write as many jokes as you possibly can on every premise you're considering. Make your mind do the gymnastics to see other perspectives, other ways of looking at the same premise. NEVER SETTLE FOR YOUR FIRST THOUGHT. You don't have to perform all of those jokes, of course...and maybe your first thought will be the best...but, if you train yourself to constantly push yourself think beyond your instincts, you'll be developing another necessary skill--the ability to see more than the obvious.
pg--As you said, I may seem to know what I'm talking about...but I might just be better at projecting my confidence than most. That is, after all, a prime attribute of any dreamcrusher--seattle
YEAH!!!ISNT THE INT8NET GREAT?
Thanks for all that, pg13. All good stuff.
So bombing is the most horrible gutwrenching experience ever. You really don't know what its like until you do it. Its awful. Holy shit i can't believe i made it out of there without cutting myself
You learn to let it sort of glide off your shoulders though. At least in the sense that in the moment it still feels awful but you are able to dismiss it quickly and get back on the horse again. Some people have trouble the first time they do really, really bad and it scares them enough that they avoid the stage either forever after that or it takes quite some time to even consider thinking about going back up on stage.
The more rooms you play, in terms of quantity and variety (coffee houses, bars, clubs, crappy community theaters), you start to realize that it is really just a room full of people and that you're already one step ahead of them since you have the courage to get up and present yourself before them. For some people would rather die than have to speak in pubic.
I don't like bombing or the idea of bombing but I take great comfort that even established comics still eat it on occasion.
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Hey, PG is a cool dude and everything... but don't listen to him. Building a routine on the advice of others is the wrong way to do it.
Everyone gives advice and they mean well, but it kills jokes. At least for me. It makes it feel like I'm reading a script instead of saying something I think is funny.
Stand up is the most selfish thing on earth and it has to come from your point of view, otherwise... what's the point.
Also, I once bombed so bad I cried in my car on the way home.*
*I am a pussy.
Last edited by TimBuktu; February 18, 2009 at 5:41 PM.
TimBuktu is absolutely right about that...and I actually said as much over in Phil's "2-22" thread, just before giving the advice I gave to ASR in this thread. Here's the link to that post: http://aspecialthing.com/forum/showp...1&postcount=27
Relevant quote:
The reason that I gave such a detailed response to ASR was sometimes you need a bludgeoning to shake your preconceived notions and open your eyes to reality. (Also known as the Gordon Ramsay Method.)
I still believe that a comedy buddy or a comedy writing group can be helpful...and I'd disagree with TimBuktu that comedy has to be selfish. Can be...but there are plenty of examples otherwise.
pg--But, since TimBuktu said that I was a cool dude (AND EVERYTHING!) I won't bludgeon y'all with examples.--seattle
Last edited by pg13; February 18, 2009 at 7:48 PM. Reason: clarity
If there's one thing I've learned from watching so much stand-up, it's that there are absolutely no real rules in the business.
Sure, some comedians are similar, but the differences between them are always so much more obvious and varied. Nobody seems to agree on anything, whether it be how to write material, how to deal with hecklers, what's funny and what isn't... everything can be argued.
Still, I believe there's some strong fundamentals that are universal to the art.
As for it being selfish, I'd rather call it personal. You have to find what works for you. I haven't found that yet, so until I do, advice is fine. I'm not just going to do what somebody says if it doesn't work for me... and I'll know when something works.
So, yeah, my whole life philosophy has been built around self-experience and learning things on your own. I'm taking that same approach with comedy... but it doesn't mean advice and feedback isn't helpful. Of course it is.
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